Combine that with what Facebook is releasing
right now and testing in a beta called Canvas Lead Ads. So Lead Ads, obviously, is another big thing,
especially … And that's like a difference from solo or affiliate market to like I guess
bigger agency. Because once you establish a really good relationship
with an advertise or your client, or whatever, you can actually talk to them, like, present
them all these features almost sell them these features. Do lead ads. So like an insurance company, hook it up with
their CRM, do amazing things together. Like even put a canvas before that. You know that, that's how I think you should
make use of these new ad formats, and yeah- Hello, and welcome to the Robust Marketer. Today we have one of my heroes in the marketing
space. We have Michael Brenner. Michael Brenner from 6H Media. I met him when we first ran Facebook Mastery
Live, in Berlin. And he was the quiet guy that sat in the back
and watched us …

He's a good friend of my partner Patrick's. And I didn't know a ton about him at the time. He was super friendly, low key, super genuine
nice guy. And then it comes to our private Mastermind
that we do. Where all the people have paid to come to
dinner and to get one more presentation, and I am wiped from a day of presentations. And then all of a sudden, like oh! Michael's gonna talk.

And I'm like oh great, another presentation,
here we go. And then he proceeded to blow everyone one
in the room away with probably the best presentation of the day by far. And he didn't even get to do half of it, which
is what was really amazing. Everyone was dying to hear the rest of it. So you want to get in touch with him maybe
about that stuff. But Michael, welcome to the Robust Marketer. How you doing today? Thank you. I'm really well. What a nice introduction. Berlin was so much fun. Great event. Yeah it was. And you're calling from Cologne right? I'm calling from Cologne, Germany, yeah. We just moved into our new office. Like all the trash and boxes are on the other
side of the room, so, yeah. I tried to get a nice view. That is a good view. That's great. And so, 6H Media, how big is 6H Media now? We're like ten people, you know. Cologne has actually has grown to be the biggest
office, but there is two more people in New York, one guy in London, and the rest of the
team is right next to me in the other room, and yeah.

I mean, Germany, it wasn't planned out that
way but it's a … Cologne has become a large online marketing, performance marketing hub. Like Ed Baker's here. Couple other companies, actually some networks,
like across Germany, the NWE gladly is not taking part in Berlin, taking place in Berlin,
and yeah. This is how it's setup right now. Amazing. We have … I've been to dmexco a few times
as well, which just balloons the city right. You get 30 people, 30k, 30,000 people or something
at dmexco. It must be crazy when that rolls into town. Yeah, all our business partners and friends,
they stayed in the shittiest hotels for like 800 euros a night.

And, the city is … It's like a million people
city, a little bit more, but it's way too small for a huge conference like dmexco. Yeah. Oh, Adblock is also in Cologne too, right. So you've got both sides of the coin. You've got the advertisers and those blocking
the ads. I remember I met them on the train when I
was in Cologne and it was right when they had just announced their new feature, which
was ads.

And I thought that was pretty funny. Adblock was just gonna start showing ads. I'm like well, what kind of world do we live
in when Adblock are showing ads. But everyone's gotta make a buck I guess. Exactly. Nice. Okay, so what we like to do on the Robust
Marketer is we start with your marketers hero's journey. Tell me a little story about how you got to
where you are, how you started. And a few things that happened in between. Everything for me started around seven years
ago, when I was in the hospital reading about making money online, SCO and stuff. And the funny thing is, if you ask someone
in Germany about affiliate marketing, most of the people will think of like SCO and them
as in affiliate marketing actually.

Exactly. Because that's how everyone starts out here. That's how I started out. I wrote the first product review myself. I ranked the sites on google. That's how I made my first money online. And then I slowly started to getting Facebook
ads right when the newsfeed started coming out, which was a good time to start doing
Facebook ads. I didn't do it full time unfortunately. I was still doing SCO on the side. And two years later I think I telephoned an
ad pack called Ready, where we did client work, Facebook advertising for larger German
companies. And on the side, you know, we started going
into more the affiliate marketing industry as well. Interesting.

And that has sort of taken off from there
basically. Yeah, so, then we all went on SCM. I got to know my current co-founder and business
partner at 6H Media, Max, who is running the New York office. And yeah, we got together over SCM … Like
actually I know Patrick from SCM as well. We all got together, Skype sessions. And then, you know, 6H Media kind of took
off when we first launch some financial legion in the US was back with Yahoo Gemini, like
three and a half years ago I think. And then there was also still … It was a
time of like display arbitrage, like all this viral nova types of sites. We had a few projects in that space. So it was a healthy mix of you know, client
work, CPA offers, display arb. It was all over the place, but now we kind
of, you know, found the direction you want it to go. Have grown with really solid big partnerships. We're doing … We're a global company doing,
you know, worldwide e-com and legion, still focus on english and german speaking market
but, yeah it's been going well and we have an amazing team that I am very grateful and
thankful for.

And your team at only ten, you know, your
revenues are quite substantial there. There in to the eight figures it's safe to
say. Is that fair? Yeah. Not to sandbag you. But that's incredible to be doing that with
only ten people. That … Who was your first hire, and why
were they so important to get? Our first hire was Villace. He describes himself so I considered as like
a farm boy from Lithuania. Nice. And he had his own fixie bike shop here Cologne.

And I actually found him over Facebook of
course, over of like a local Facebook group, which is an amazing place to look for new
hires, new team members by the way, if everyone is looking for strong partners. And then yeah, he just came in, you know,
he knew nothing about online marketing besides doing a few Edwards, PPC ads for like his
bike shop. And then we showed him the world of affiliate
marketing and now he's literally grown into the biggest media buying rockstar I know,
you know. He's like … I really wanna when I now … We
just launched a new video ad to find new hires. If I wanna do the targeting, I wanna build
a look alike just off of him, because he's done such an amazing work that we obviously
wanna find more people like him. But yeah, he's just a really good friend. We have low hierarchies here. And yeah, now he's heading up our media buying
operation. So you just gotta geo-target Lithuanian farms. Right, right. See if you can find some more farmers …

really cool. So what's your mix now? Are you guys mostly an ecommerce sort of CPA
shop or do you still have a similar mix where you're doing some arbitrage, some e-commerce,
some legion. Our main business, I can't talk too much unfortunately
about the projects outside of the main CPA business and like the agency performance business. But we're mostly focusing on financial legion. That's fair to say. But we are also running our fair share of
e-commerce products. And that's all across sometimes even a hundred
countries plus. But Germany's a big market now for us. UK, US, Canada, Australia, all the usual suspects.

Nice. Does … I wanted to ask you too, does 6H
Media have any meaning? Or is it just one of those things? I remember I saw it at Neverblue. And everyone is always trying to figure out
what Neverblue actually means. Does 6H have a meaning? Such a good question. And actually some of our close friends and
partners, they say right away and, "Oh that makes sense." And some of them are just mind blown after
three years when they learn about that 6H stands for the six hour time difference between
Germany and New York. That's hilarious. That's like-
That's super good. I dunno know, like. I dunno, like I thought it's easy to pick
up, but I think 80% of the people just don't get it right away. I like it though. And that's, and someone … I'm on the west
coast of Canada, so it would be like plus 12 or whatever ridiculous thing.

No I guess it's only plus nine, I guess. It would be 9H Media, which sounds …
Nine. Yeah. I might have to start that up. We have that problem two weeks a year by the
way. Because we then have to rename ourselves to
5H Media. Because there's one week where German's daylight
saving and east coast daylight saving, like the first so-
I like it.

Yeah, but that's the story behind it. Nice. Okay good. Well thanks for relaying that. So, basically when you came and spoke at the
Mastermind, at our event there. You spoke a lot about different kinds of formats. Things that people weren't maybe getting the
most out of right now on Facebook. What are some of the things you guys are experimenting
with, seeing some success with, in terms of different kinds of ad formats these days? Yeah, I mean that's a good one, because Facebook
is releasing them so fast these days, it's almost hard to keep track.

But, the biggest one I think, they released
the last, I dunno, a year, it was like canvas ads, which was most of the people are already
familiar by now. But they getting better and better each day
in terms of what you can do with it. So basically, it's just like this little landing
page within Facebook, where you can have all sorts of drag and drop elements on there. You put your logo, your text, your ad copy
in there. And, these are if you get a little bit creative
on them, these are amazing because you can multi length different canvases behind each
other. So you can really, you know, warm up your
traffic. You can give the users a lot product information. In the beginning, some people made use of
that, because policy wasn't super behind canvases. But they look more closely now. So just a disclaimer for everyone who is trying
to do these things. But yeah, canvases has been a big one, you
know. Combine that with video ads, and then the
feature Facebook ads in the back end, in terms of engagement audiences.

So you … This has been available since a
while now. But you can target people who watch certain
percentage of your videos. You can target people who scroll through … Like
went into your canvas, who scrolled through a certain, to a certain point. And which is … And the other thing that
is really amazing, you can tag people who click out of the canvas, which if you think
about it … And that's exactly what Facebook is trying
to do since like ever almost. Like bringing the whole out external funnel. Like that's what they do in e-commerce, right. They don't want you to shop outside of Facebook. They want to bring the whole funnel, including
the add to cart, checkout, payment.

They want to bring that into Facebook. And they're already do that now, so yeah. If you think about it that way, just bring
your landing pages to Facebook, have much faster loading times, you can create all these
audiences. Which you can use for retargeting because
people went to your canvas, clicked out of your canvas. So it's basically just bringing your whole
marketing funnel closer to Facebook. And then what is nice about it, you know,
create all this amazing custom audience out of it, create look a likes out of it. Which you can also do, you know, in external
funnels. But for some offers, for some products, for
some clients, it might make a lot of sense to have this canvas experience especially
because of loading times, and loading speed. Yeah. No, and loading times especially in the mobile
environment makes such a huge difference. It's something that you can't really overestimate. Can't really underestimate rather. But, it makes perfect sense from Facebook's
perspective. All of the big internet giants, their goal
is to make the internet, you know, make your experience on the internet Facebook.

They want Facebook to be your portal for everything. So the more that they can keep you in, the
better. We're gonna have to experiment with that. We're going a lot of stuff right now with
ManyChat, and messenger marketing. We're basically warming up for our high end
mastermind that we're doing with some really cool ManyChat campaigns. Seeing some great results. And that's another benefit of canvas I imagine,
is you can kind of interlink the messenger marketing with your experience as you go through
there, and get different messages depending on where they get into, where they engage
the canvas. Exactly. And I mean, that's something we're using. Like messenger's another ad form that's super
interesting. Glad you brought that up. Combine that with what Facebook is releasing
right now and testing a beta called Canvas Lead Ads. So Lead Ads obviously another big thing. Especially … And that's a difference from
a solo or affiliate market to I guess like bigger agency. Because once you establish a really good relationship
with an advertiser or your client or whatever.

You can actually talk to them, like present
them all these features, almost sell them these features. Do lead ads for an insurance company, hook
it up with their CRM, do amazing things together. Like even put a canvas before that. That's how I think you should make use of
these new ad formats, and yeah. I mean, messenger is a big one. People like, the only negative point I hear
about it, I guess, is people are still very depending on Facebook. Because if you build out a messenger that's
got 10,000 people, it's probably worth a hundred thousand email subscribers, you know. Hard to compare-
Based on the engagement rates, yeah.

Based on the metrics, like delivery rate,
open rate, we're seeing delivery rates up to 100%. Open rates, 90%. Click rates, 50%. If you tell that to a, you know, very experience
email guy, he will be like, "What's going on here?" And so I think you should definitely use it. Just be aware of what the policy with Facebook
messenger is. Be aware on the dependency you have with Facebook. And also that there might be changes coming
up in the future where, I dunno if Facebook's gonna eventually charge you for like outgoing
messages in messenger right. They always try to monetize their platform. So, that might be one thing they're doing. Especially if you include the link, or an
advertisement, which you often times cannot even do because it's against policy. Like you know, you need to … If you broadcast
messages after 24 hours after someone's subscribed, you actually need to get an interaction from
them before you can send them more promotional material. That's like something you shouldn't run, you
shouldn't do if you're like … Where you should be aware of. Yeah. Especially when you're building your, you
know, with canvas you're building your whole experience into Facebook so therefore yeah
you have to be extra careful about policies so that you don't …

'Cause you'll lose everything,
you know. You could potentially still run some native
ads to a funnel that's built outside of Facebook for instance, or maybe even find other ways
to run Facebook, but when you build everything directly into the canvases I guess that is
sort of a eggs in one basket situation, so … But as long as you're aware, as aware
as you can be of Facebook policy, 'cause it's always changing. Yeah. How's your relationship with your rep? Do you have one of those reps go to Ireland
as well, like Patrick? Yes, yes. We have an amazing Ireland rep. And we've been there two weeks ago. We going there in three weeks again. The relationship with Facebook is great. It really … There's almost just two ways,
right. Either way you try to find a way to work around
Facebook or you, you know, try to make it work with Facebook.

And I mean so much has happened, I guess just
this year with the whole Facebook platform, the relationship with performance marketing,
affiliate marketing. But I think if you just try it, you know,
to go, to provide higher quality creatives, that's a big one, you know. If you have a small team, invest a lot into
your creatives. We like hired a full time video guy. We want to do really high quality product
shots. It doesn't only help you with policy, it even
helps you with performance on the actual ads, because Facebook realizes if someone puts
a really high quality ten eighty P4K video and whatever compared to a really amateurish
you know low video quality image.

So, yeah, these are things you should do when
you want to run compliantly with Facebook, and then just … Another thing I just realized
the other day is a year ago I would have never told a new media buyer, a new campaign manager
in the company to use Shutterstock images or stock photos, you know, because I'm like
yeah that's … You need to use the opposite of that, you know, try to go more amateur,
more clickbaity. But everything changed, right. And right now we're seeing actually good success
with sometimes using creatives that Facebook provides. Like in power, edit, tone, ad level. Once you upload an ad, they provide you with
direct access to Shutterstock, photo material. Really? And I'm not saying … Yeah, yeah, they do. So you don't even have to buy photos from
Shutterstock to use them in your creatives. You can just search for keywords. Within Facebook end, obviously it gives you
the typical Shutterstock, you know, see as you look.

And I'm not saying these are our most profitable
creatives. And obviously CTR is usually low on these. But you know, use them for retargeting. Just play around with the headline. You're gonna pay higher cost per click, but
you're gonna run to much less Facebook policy issues. And the quality of the leads is actually,
usually higher, depends on what space you are right. But because if people really identify you
as that brand, then sometimes you don't want that super amateurish clickbaity. Oh what is this like old lady doing here. But you want to be a little bit more salesy
in your creative, to you know, prime the user, and warm them up for what they're gonna expect.

Because if you're super clickbaity, everyone
clicks on your ad, you have a 10% CTR, super low CPC, with like 80 90% of the people bounce
right off your landing page. And Facebook measures that. We all know that by now. So there's definitely some things to change,
and I, by now I recommend playing around with much cleaner creatives, high quality creatives. Especially if it comes to retargeting. Also use images on your landing page. Try experimenting. Split test more amateurish images on your
blog page, photography page, offer page, with more Shutterstock type of images.

And then keep the continuity going if you
then do retargeting, use the image on your insurance landing page for your ads to have
people really remember your brand and create that brand awareness. Yeah, it's the first I've actually heard of
this. 'Cause for the longest time you are going
for the … When I was doing a lot of arbitrage and display and stuff like that, it was so
frustrating when you create these beautiful ads that just didn't work as well, or didn't
work as well in that current environment. You'd have to do something. You'd draw on a, you know, you'd use your
mouse and draw like a, like something over top of an image and it would work way better.

But I can see how it like … First of all
Facebook is changing the game as you say, by a lot of their policy updates, and forcing
you to kind of improve the quality of your images. But it's interesting how it's like moving
the yardsticks, so that it's actually producing higher quality results as well. Yeah. And it's really-
That's the most interesting part to me too. But it's not just if you do 10% of work, you
know. And that's why it's so hard to compete in
this industry if you're a lone affiliate. And I'm … I mean there's examples out there,
really really successful people doing it because they have amazing systems. But if you're not putting in the work into
your creatives, into your funnel, providing a little bit more value to the consumer in
the end, then you're gonna have a hard time in terms of how sustainable is your business
really then. Yeah. One thing that came to mind too while you
were talking there is this, you know, I bet a lot of your best campaigns that you're running,
and your longest campaigns, your biggest money campaigns, are ones where you've built out
a relationship with a direct advertiser.

And with what Facebook is doing, by adding
all these new formats and stuff, it's really gonna up people's agency game. It's gonna up the potential for people to
be able to work directly with these new clients. Because as Facebook rolls up more and more
stuff, it's gonna be harder for the brands themselves to manage this stuff, and to keep
on the cutting edge. So, I think we're gonna see a big lift in
Facebook experts who can make these direct relationships with advertisers, and really
drive the cutting edge stuff that you're talking about. 100%. And I mean, that's all it's about, right. You don't even have to be an affiliate and
find an offer. You can just be a smart Facebook marketer,
you know, see an ad in your newsfeed, or just see a great product of a company that's already
doing well, a start up, whatever it is.

Go to them, pitch them what amazing things
you can do by now with Facebook. And if you have a little bit of experience,
you will most likely find some success in one way or the other. And another good point you brought here with
the big brands, you know, and coming back to using more Shutterstock … Shutterstock
is like a little bit too much. But just very high quality product videos
and images.

That's what brands do, and they obviously
get bad metrics, and they want different things. They want to get their brand awareness and
reach, and everything. You're like more on the performance side. But what they don't know is, what comes after
just putting out that beautiful image out there. You know how to do video retargeting campaigns,
like creating customer audiences based off percentage of video viewers, these canvas
lead ads engagement audiences. All the … You know how to utilize the pixel,
to send back amazing parameters to your side, and make use of all these things on the platform,
so yeah. I totally agree that it's, that the game changed. You need to, yeah, almost pitch the new features
to some of the clients. But I think it still works amazingly if you
know what you're doing, and if you're just always staying up to date. And so you actually can provide a lot of value
to the consumer, and also to your advertiser, or partner, or client, or whatever, whoever
it is. Yeah, and it's easy to underestimate them
as an affiliate, the value that you have to someone like that.

But it's really important to think about how
much more knowledge you might have than someone who works in the marketing department at one
of these companies. Exactly. Even if you've just run sweeps or whatever. Like you already have a huge knowledge base
that you shouldn't underestimate. So, one of the questions … So, as again
as you were talking there, now, one of the things that we experimented with a little
bit in my last company when were doing display stuff for brands, is this idea of sequential
retargeting. Or the idea of sort of story telling over

I've never really gotten … and so that involves
dynamic sort of decision trees in a way, of like if they've seen this ad, then show them
this ad, and sort of … Have you ever experimented with those kind of sequential based things
or is it more still like, is it more still like, you know, you're hitting people with
images, and then hit em with another image. Like do you ever step it out, and try to make
it like a story. On a smaller scale, yes.

I get to that in a second. But what you just talked about with sequential
storytelling and retargeting. A really good case study, and most of the
people probably know of him by now. It's from Jon Loomer. Jon Loomer does a lot of these things. He's like, I think he's like a British guy,
and has a big blog on Facebook marketing called And he does a lot of these like experiments
where, you know, he puts people into different categories based on what pages they've seen. And then he's like click this ad and then
you're gonna see a blue ad, and then click on the blue ad, like he works with colors
and all that stuff so. You know, a lot of these things, I always
try to go for the 80 20, you know, the 20% that will give me 80% of the results. So it's not always easy with every campaign
we run to build that granular.

But what we do there is, even in legion, if
you have a long legion flow where people, you know, have to go through 20 different
fields, and questions, you can, if they drop off at a certain point during these questions,
you can actually have every … That's what I recommend for everyone running Facebook,
always have your funnel, pixel as much as possible. Send all the information back you have, feed
an e-com star, where you sent back the amount of products, the category of the product,
the price of the product people put into their basket, checkout with. You know, all that information you can easily
send back to Facebook through there quite sophisticated events.

So, yeah, that's what we do in legion. We send back as much information as possible. Every single question in the step, we usually
have a certain event, a custom event, or a standard event on. We send back all that information so later
on … The point where people dropped off, you can try to directly get them from that
point back into the funnel. And you can also experiment obviously with
like, you know, maybe if they dropped off in the beginning, you almost had them there,
but maybe, you know, they had some question about their refinancing or their huge new
insurance they're gonna apply for. So you re-target them with a really good video
that again explains them the service or product you're selling.

So, yeah that's something we do. And then definitely we also play around with
trust logos. That's a big one on the landing page. Okay. Yeah. And even different colors and all these variables
you can test. But yeah, regarding the retargeting. I haven't done that granular. But there's definitely some … The most basic
advice I have on that, is use video ads for cold traffic, and then image ads for retargeting

Yeah. That's something that I've heard echoed quite
a bit. I was talking with Steve Tan on a podcast
yesterday. He had an interesting point about images. I asked him about his video versus his images
that he use. And he was saying that so many people are
now doing video ads, that it's almost like they forgot about images in a well. And people are like … And so there's an
opportunity still, in images. This happened when I was at Neverblue as well
where we invested heavily into mobile, running mobile stuff. And then everyone sort of forgot about like
Desktop. And so then there became an amazing opportunity
in Desktop. It's really interesting the way the market
sort of like morphs and shifts. Yeah. I definitely agree, and I now that you say,
I hear a lot of people who are doing huge number on Facebook that still do really well
with video, with image campaigns. They almost can't believe we're running 80
90% of videos now. But, yeah, you know I always try to have a
healthy mix in, I never over complicate things in terms of you know …

We have like, obviously
we have systems and structures on how we run campaigns. But you know, often times, it's just like,
I try to be a little bit more creative and a little bit more open. So I throw in some images there. I throw in some videos. Speaking of … If you … It's one little
hack that we heard directly from Facebook. If you're running all placements and audience
network. There's still delivery issues when it comes
to video ads on audience network. So, say you have like a video campaign. No matter what it objective. But you using a video as a creative. Always throw in like one image into that ad
set, because that will like increase your delivery on audience network. Because they still have problems, you know,
showing videos on external sides. Oh, very cool. Yeah. Nice. I was gonna say, what right now, so outside
of power editor, and you know, your basic tool set, what third party tools are you thrilled
with? What third party tools are really helping
you and your business right now? By now we really try to develop our own dashboard.

We have the API access, so we have certain
reportings, and certain metrics, and overview of all our accounts, and business ventures,
and campaigns, that we only manage through that own tool piece of software we build. But outside of that, I think that a really
good one for moderating comments, was agora polls. Which is quite expensive compared to other
comment moderating tools. But it still does the job really well, because
it pulls comments from all your pages, all your ad accounts into one nice almost newsfeed
type of stream where you can just swipe the comments and moderate the comments.

Another tool I think I talked about in Berlin
is Which is kind of if you don't have the resources
yet, or time to invest in your own PMD platform almost, or your dashboard, utilizing the Facebook
API. You can use that party tool, like super metrics,
and what they do is, they utilize the API for you. But, you know, present you with like a reasonable,
a nice user interface. I would actually recommend using their google
sheets add on. And what they do is essentially, they just
pull all sorts of data. And some of the data is not even available
through the Facebook UI. That's only available through the API.

So you hook up super metrics. You connect your ad accounts. And what you can do then, say you run a solo
offer across two business managers and ten ad accounts. So once everything is connected, you just
pull these ten ad accounts, and you can kind of like, with a pivot table, you can combine
all the metrics from all the accounts together so you wouldn't have to manually, individually
export all the reports and CSV file from your single ad account. So you can merge all that data together and
then have amazing sorting functionality. You can see which countries, what age ranges,
which devices had the lowest CPA. And make really inform decisions on your campaign
to optimize, because in the t's all about, we know that it's all about the data when
it comes to optimization of what you doing with the campaigns.

And that tool just really helps you to cut
down to it and have- And to see the effects, to see the attributes
that are really driving success. Exactly, exactly. I mean that's especially useful if you run
a lot of campaigns, offers across a lot of accounts. Which a lot of people do these days because
I barely hear anyone who's like, "Oh yeah, I run like 200k a day on like two ad accounts
right." Usually it's like the infrastructure's more
spread out. Exactly. So are you guys doing a lot of automation
then with your … So you sort of PMD. When I was doing user acquisition for a gaming
company before, and I used a startup PMD called TORO that was just amazing. It got bought by Google actually but a … So
you guys now, you not only have a metric system, but you also have something that's probably
using some automation in or to launch and manage campaigns, or it that still all done
manually in your organization? Yeah, it's a funny because usually you try
to automate all these things.

And Facebook now came up with their own rule
system within ads management power editor I think. But we're not using that many rules actually. We try to keep it simple there. We use smartly [inaudible]. We use the rule base stuff in terms of, you
know, turn it down when the CPA goes above your target. And then other rules where you just upload
a bunch of campaigns, go to bed.

But you know if the CPC is over like a dollar
or something, it's not gonna work out anyway in the end. You know by now, I think one reason why we
might have gone back to a little bit more manual work, 'cause like, and that's maybe
an interesting one, like the relationship you have with your campaigns. Like you know these rule based things, might
allow you to run one, two more offers or a couple more campaigns. But you kind of get a little bit more detached.

That's also why in our internal processes
here a media buyer always uploads his or her own campaigns, right. It's not that some media analyst, or someone
was just helping out from the creative side, uploads campaigns for them and then they start
running once the campaign is uploaded. No, it's like you don't … The relationship
to your campaign is not deep enough so you too detached from it if you're not, you know,
uploaded it at least yourself. That's like our philosophy, and that's also
why, you know … Like I like Villace, like our head of media buying. He can still run ten offers, ten campaigns,
but even if you're just running two or three, there's a little bit more manual work, but
in the end, rules never helped us out to be honest. Hand crafted campaigns, I love it. Right right. That sounds good. You know, feel the love, feel the love. Nice. Put some love into your place. All right, well speaking of love, I have a
couple questions from Patrick here, your business partner. Oh. He said … He wanted me to ask any rules

He wanted me to ask you what the most you've ever lost in a day is? I think we lost … Okay I had another story,
but I think that's something for like a fuck up panel at fml. Yes, you can-
Now like, on a regular offer we've probably lost like, not that much actually, like 6k
maybe a day or something. Okay. That's not brutal. Maybe if you had auto rows. If you didn't have your hands on the campaign
as much you might have lost a little bit more.

Yeah, exactly. The next question from him is, how close have
you come to giving up? Have you ever come close to saying fuck it
Facebook, you're fucking me one last … Like have you ever come close to quitting? Yeah. I guess, almost every week. I think, yeah. You know, it happened frequently, but then
again, it just depends how you set up, what's your relationship. And by now it's not like, you know, we have
that many policy issues anymore. Because really, if you do, there's no way
to be managed anymore. So I think we kind of went to like a quiet
healthy relationship with Facebook these days. So it's not like, you know, you're that annoyed. It's more like … These days it's more, it's
not like policy issues, it's more like, you know, all these bugs, and power editor. And like all these little issues like, there
was for weeks like our media buyers like almost lost their shit every day. Because they created these beautiful long
canvases with all sorts of sliders and interactive elements.

And then once you save the canvas, ten minutes
later, it was just gone. And like half an hour of your work, just gone. Like these little bugs and issues with Facebook
are almost more annoying than everything else. But still, in the end, it's kind of like this
ex-girlfriend you always come back to. It's an addic-
You're invested. Yeah, you're not getting away from it. I love it. And yeah I can … I bet there's a little
bit of satisfaction … I know, you hate it when Facebook up, and there's bugs and stuff
like that. But at least you know it's not your fault
in any way. At least you can be like, "Ha you fucked up,
you're the, this is all on you Facebook." Yup.

I mean the thing it's with other traffic sources,
you usually, you know, the natives, you sometimes get your money with Facebook. It's actually possible. A lot of people don't even try, so you should
try it. But it's much harder. So sometimes, you know, spending two, three,
four K in an hour something, the whole lifetime budget of like two weeks. Stuff like that still happens, but it hasn't
been too bad for us actually.

Nice. Now a few weeks ago, I saw an amazing picture
of you, and what looked to be a 200 pound dog. Is this your dog? This is actually Village dog. The Lithuanian farm boy's dog who, yeah, this
our new office dog now. And it's a samoyed. It's a, that huge white dog. Charlie, come here. We're gonna introduce the podcast world to
Charlie, here. Charlie, I'm gonna recreate your photo. That's amazing. So that's Charlie there. Charlie listens way better than Motchi, who's
our samoyed. Motchi. Yeah. This is Charlie. He's a yoodle. He's a wheaten terrier crossed with a poodle,
and he's a total badass. Charlie. What's up? He can't hear you, but look, there you go.

Okay, you can get down now. Thank you. He may not get down. Well anyway I think-
Amazing dog. Yeah he's super good. You should see him fetch. But thank you so much for coming on the podcast
today. I appreciate it. My pleasure. Charlie is fucking up my studio here. He's fucking up your tech. He's fucking up my tech. Get down, get down. Okay. Nice man. Well again, super great seeing you. I hope to see you in Bangkok. I'm not sure if you're going to make it out
this year. But if not, I'll catch you in Germany shortly
after, I'm sure. Right, yeah. I'll have to create this [inaudible] if I
won't make it but, yeah, I mean, amazing talk to you.

Let's catch up soon and have a great time
in Bangkok. I will, thanks man. Bye. Have a good one. Bye

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